April 06, 2020, 04:08 am

Author Topic: Shooting Window scenario APR 8th  (Read 1252 times)

Offline nicopico4440

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Shooting Window scenario APR 8th
« on: April 09, 2017, 03:42 am »
FukkaJones base Apr 8 ByB Rebirth.

His base is illegal because: The gold bars obscures the view of the raider, while the defender has more advantage because of the "They can see you but you can't see them" rule.

First off this is their base.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=901408783
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=901408695
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=901408404

I made a little copy of their base here
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=901408540
In this picture, I make an example where someone can stand behind a shooting window, and not be able to see them, but to able to shoot your arms etc. There's only a 1x2 space so there isn't much wiggle room to adjust. It benefits the raiders.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=901408636

[Plus to crack their keypad you need to be standing the whole time to crack.. I think it is ridiculous considering there's a rule about keypads that they need to be put in a reasonable location, and not be forced to do something to be able to crack them.. However this is just a side issue that I personally would like some clarification.]


I asked Delux, a super admin, and he didn't think it was illegal.
If you can allow some of these gold bars to obstruct them, you can do a bunch of bars and do this:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=901418772
As you can see, this is an exaggeration, I'm just saying that to make things simpler would be to not have ANY obstructions of any shooting window in the raid entrance.

Another issue is in the attachment picture, these maze bases that have gaps between where the raiders stand, and the shooting windows creates subtle problems like this where defenders gets little cracks to shoot through, and admins don't really press the issue on things like this ingame.. I hate these maze bases but here is where we can talk about what is circumventing the rules and being more crystal clear about the defense systems.


I had trouble posting hopefully there isn't another of the same topic by mistake

Offline H20

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Re: Shooting Window scenario APR 8th
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2017, 03:50 am »
I have used this set up before and asked admins if it okay and they all said it was fine I also dont see why you posted a ticked if a super admin said it was okay.
H20


Offline nicopico4440

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Re: Shooting Window scenario APR 8th
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2017, 04:01 am »
Despite your experience, doesn't mean it is not an oversight.
It doesn't address the points, problems, and arguments I've made

EDIT: also in the opening post I mean't it benefits the defenders not the raiders, don't know how to edit that part
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 04:07 am by nicopico4440 »

Offline Cookie

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Re: Shooting Window scenario APR 8th
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2017, 04:39 am »
Your argument is that if I put a lot of bars it would be the same but its not because I don't have a lot of bars... Deluxe even said you can see more to the defenders than you are claiming. The keypad is able to be cracked by both raiders just how the rules are supposed to be. Just cause you cant crouch and avoid my shot and crack keypad at the same time does not mean it's illegal.

Offline AdamS

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Re: Shooting Window scenario APR 8th
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2017, 07:11 am »
Are you stupid or what?

My only gripe with these base designs is the keypad placements.  They should be BESIDE the door they are supposed to open, on both sides.  Having them a bit further off  like in these setups tend to force the raiders at a position to properly crack them and not allow crouching. 

Offline Tschudy

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Re: Shooting Window scenario APR 8th
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2017, 07:13 am »
I'd have to agree with Nico on the part regarding the mazing.  The way it interacts with the shooting windows and their angles tends to have them compound on one-another resulting in shooting spaces that are practically smaller than the rules allows, even if they are not technically smaller.
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Offline Cookie

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Re: Shooting Window scenario APR 8th
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2017, 09:09 am »
See the thing is they can see us as much as we can see them the keypads are placed farther away so they cant crack from 2 miles away. Those poles don't block any vision from the raiders. And its not really a maze if its just two doors. and that's it.

Offline StupidWeasel

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Re: Shooting Window scenario APR 8th
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2017, 02:47 pm »
they cant crack from 2 miles away.
Limit is the length of 3 phx units (think 1x3phx plate), hardly all that far.

FunnyClaps

Offline Tschudy

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Re: Shooting Window scenario APR 8th
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2017, 03:22 pm »
See the thing is they can see us as much as we can see them the keypads are placed farther away so they cant crack from 2 miles away. Those poles don't block any vision from the raiders. And its not really a maze if its just two doors. and that's it.
The term "maze" in this case refers to the rather jagged layout and the angles of attack created that heavily benefit the defenders.  And the vertical plates DO create obstructions for the raiders, albeit small ones.
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Offline nicopico4440

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Re: Shooting Window scenario APR 8th
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2017, 05:34 pm »
Your argument is that if I put a lot of bars it would be the same but its not because I don't have a lot of bars... Deluxe even said you can see more to the defenders than you are claiming. The keypad is able to be cracked by both raiders just how the rules are supposed to be. Just cause you cant crouch and avoid my shot and crack keypad at the same time does not mean it's illegal.
1. It isn't the amount of bars, it is the principle that you can't have any obstructions in the shooting window. The minimum PHX 0.5x2 plateprop viewing angle shouldn't be disrupted by any obstruction in the raiders point of view.

2. Let Deluxe speak for himself, PM him this topic, ingame he said he would reply on the forums.

3. Your point on the keypad isn't wrong, but the placement of the keypads so low, and so away from the actual fading door makes it look kind of ridiculous in its location. There are so many rules about keypad placement because people use them to get an unreasonable fair advantage, I'd think that the keypad is used in this scenario is unreasonable. You can't get an advantage like that in the basic chambered raid entrance in the ByB recommended picture. Once again the nature of the "maze" base. People abuse this so they can headshot the defenseless thief cracking, while his one friend who can fit in that 1x2 space defending him can't shoot the defender in his compounded angled shooting windows so awkwardly placed.

See the thing is they can see us as much as we can see them the keypads are placed farther away so they cant crack from 2 miles away. Those poles don't block any vision from the raiders. And its not really a maze if its just two doors. and that's it.
1. You can place them on a wall so that they have to be in the chamber, and visible to shoot them from the shooting window to start cracking.

2.The Poles DO Block vision, I made an example here

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=901408636

There's actually a person there with his physgun out, the way I was standing he was completely out of my view but he could shoot my fat torso because of the distance and angle. You can't argue that they aren't subtle advantages for the defenders. Obviously if you had ton of poles, you would have a huge advantage, but that's the point I'm trying to make, to not have ANY poles or obstructions, for principle.

3. Yeah, I don't know what to call these maze bases, what I'm referring to is any base that has a huge gap from the shooting window, and where the raider actually stands, and uses this spacial advantage to angle build their shooting windows in awkward way to surround the raiders.





Offline Deluxe

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Re: Shooting Window scenario APR 8th
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2017, 10:51 pm »
I went extensively over his base. I found one invalid shooting window which has been removed then I had nightmare checkout the part with the bars and he thinks its fine. Even did a little test with it. We've also had stupid weasel reply and he only mentioned something about the keypad cracker crack length. The version of the base he has currently now fits in fine with the rules.
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